View Full Version : Swap Over Challenge
Urban Legend
26-11-07, 11:18
PL Teams in the firing line of the Southern Cup Challengers (if they choose to): 7th PL v 2nd SC, 8th PL v 1st SC. PL has home court
(In order 7th, 8th PL, 1st, 2nd SC- splits decided based on games played between the two teams for PL)
This is my reckoning not anything official from BQ so please correct my mistakes.
U12 Girls- Caboolture, Runaway Bay
U12 Girls SC- Northside Wizards(undefeated), Logan Storm
U12 Boys- BBI Capitals, Runaway Bay
U12 Boys SC- Ipswich Force 1, Caboolture Suns 1(both undefeated)
U14 Girls- SD Titans, SW Metro
U14 Girls SC- GC Waves, BBI Silver(both undefeated)
U14 Boys- Runaway Bay, Maroochydore
U14 Boys SC- Northside Wizards(undefeated), Toowoomba(Same as Redlands in win % but have better points %)
U16 Girls- BBI Silver, Ipswich Force 1
U16 Girls SC- SD Titans(better points % than Wizards)(undefeated), Northside Wizards(better points % than Toowoomba)(undefeated)
U16 Boys- Northside Wizards, BBI Silver
U16 Boys SC- SW Metro(ahead of Redlands 2 on points %), Redlands 2(both undefeated)
U18 Girls- BBI Silver, Toowoomba
U18 Girls SC- Caboolture Suns 1(undefeated), Northside Wizards(beat Redlands in Head-to-Head match up)
U18 Boys- BBI Silver, Runaway Bay
U18 Boys SC- SD Titans(ahead of Ipswich on points %), Ipswich Force 1(both undefeated)
Below is from the BQ rules
** In the case of some Sthn Cup divisions having 2 pools, placings for this will be based on the classification of teams method (page 7) looking at both pools to determine who the 1st and 2nd placed teams are overall (ie. u14 Boys Sthn Cup has Pool A and Pool B. The team with the highest win% out of Pool A and Pool B will assume the position of 1st)
Classification of Teams
(a) win % (b) points%
(i) If there are two teams that finish equal at the end of the regular season playing schedule then only the result(s) of the game(s) between the two teams involved will be used to determine the final placing in the regular season standings.
(ii) In the event that the total points scored and conceded are the same in the games between the two teams, the classification will be determined by GOAL AVERAGE taking into account the results of all the games played in the League by both teams.
Urban Legend
27-11-07, 12:33
SC Teams that have decided to challenge the PL teams:
I have seen a problem with this and have mentioned it below which I am sure they will change for next year.
Under 12 Boys Ips Force 1 v RB Seahawks
Cab Suns 1 v BBI Capitals(SC2 v PL7)
Under 14 Boys Northside Wiz v Maroochydore
Under 16 Boys SW Metro v BBI Silver
Under 18 Boys SD Titans v RB Seahawks
Ips Force 1 v BBI Silver(SC2 v PL7)
Under 12 Girls Northside Wiz v RB Seahawks
Under 14 Girls GC Waves v SW Metro
Under 16 Girls Northside Wiz 1(2nd in SC) v BBI Silver(7th in PL)
Under 18 Girls Cab Suns 1 v Toowoomba
Northside Wiz v BBI Silver(SC2 v PL7)
If the 1st team in Southern Cup declines to challenge and the 2nd team in Southern Cup does challenge then the 2nd team in Southern Cup should play the 8th team in Premier League rather than the 7th team which will happen this year(2nd SC v 7th PL).
For example:
In U16 Girls this year, you have:
7th PL- Brisbane Silver (2 wins)
8th PL- Ipswich 1 (0 wins)
Because the 1st team in Southern Cup has declined to challenge, now Brisbane Silver has to play to stay in PL whereas Ipswich 1 don’t have to play which seems backwards. I know the rules are in place for this year but I am sure this will be changed next year.
Unregistered
27-11-07, 16:49
Redlands U16 Boys.
Can't or won't challenge?
Urban Legend
27-11-07, 18:32
Here's the draw for this Saturday December 01.
Under 12 Boys Ips Force 1 v RB Seahawks R/Bay Indoor St. 3:30pm
Cab Suns 1 v BBI Capitals Auchenflower 4, 4pm
Under 14 Boys Northside Wiz v Maroochydore Maroochy Stad. 3pm
Under 16 Boys SW Metro v BBI Silver Auchenflower 3, 4pm
Under 18 Boys SD Titans v RB Seahawks R/Bay Indoor St. 3:30pm
Ips Force 1 v BBI Silver Auchenflower 1, 4pm
Under 12 Girls Northside Wiz v RB Seahawks R/Bay Indoor St. 3:30pm
Under 14 Girls GC Waves v SW Metro Runcorn Sports 2pm
Under 16 Girls Northside Wiz 1 v BBI Silver Auchenflower 2, 4pm
Under 18 Girls Cab Suns 1 v Toowoomba Water St, Toow. 4:30pm
Northside Wiz v BBI Silver Auchenflower 1, 5:30pm
***PLEASE NOTE*** Should the Sthn Cup team LOSE, no changes occur to the draw.
Should the Sthn Cup team WIN, they will immediately (ie starting the very next day Dec 2) take the position in the current draw of the PL team they just beat.
Unregistered
27-11-07, 21:40
Rumour is that U'16 girls Ipswich 2ND team has to challenge.... But not the first team. Strange.
Wrong. How can you believe a team that is 2nd last in 2nd div can challenge for anything?
Don't believe everything you hear.
Redlands U16 Boys.
Can't or won't challenge?
im guessing "can't"
Unregistered
28-11-07, 13:46
SC Teams that have decided to challenge the PL teams:
I have seen a problem with this and have mentioned it below which I am sure they will change for next year.
Under 12 Boys Ips Force 1 v RB Seahawks
Cab Suns 1 v BBI Capitals(SC2 v PL7)
Under 14 Boys Northside Wiz v Maroochydore
Under 16 Boys SW Metro v BBI Silver
Under 18 Boys SD Titans v RB Seahawks
Ips Force 1 v BBI Silver(SC2 v PL7)
Under 12 Girls Northside Wiz v RB Seahawks
Under 14 Girls GC Waves v SW Metro
Under 16 Girls Northside Wiz 1(2nd in SC) v BBI Silver(7th in PL)
Under 18 Girls Cab Suns 1 v Toowoomba
Northside Wiz v BBI Silver(SC2 v PL7)
If the 1st team in Southern Cup declines to challenge and the 2nd team in Southern Cup does challenge then the 2nd team in Southern Cup should play the 8th team in Premier League rather than the 7th team which will happen this year(2nd SC v 7th PL).
For example:
In U16 Girls this year, you have:
7th PL- Brisbane Silver (2 wins)
8th PL- Ipswich 1 (0 wins)
Because the 1st team in Southern Cup has declined to challenge, now Brisbane Silver has to play to stay in PL whereas Ipswich 1 don’t have to play which seems backwards. I know the rules are in place for this year but I am sure this will be changed next year.
i think there is a far worse problem on the horizon than the i you have stated above.
how is it fair that a southern cup team can make the playoffs?
i beleive that any team that has lost 3 games or more in PL and are currently in the top 4 are in grave danger of missing out to a southern cup team. by way of an example the under 16 comp both boys and girls.
both have 100% win l recordes and have huge scoring%
as the current 4th placed team in the under 16 PL girls has lost 3 games you could count on them losing at least 2 more at best that gives them a 9win 5 loss record. if the girls SC make it in to PL, as i understand it they carry there win and % in PL. therfore they go straight to the top of the ladder. now lets just assume that they manage to beat the 7th and 8th placed team they then finsih with 9wins and 5 losses..........
i think that you will find that this possibility applies in most of the comps and in my mind isnt fair.
this all goes back to the stupid half arsed trials format. you either do it right or leave it as it was.
BQ tried to fix something that wasnt broken.
Unregistered
28-11-07, 14:10
I believe that its a swap of competition data, so the southern cup team would then take the relegated teams win % and scoring %, and the relegated would inherit the southern cup teams data.
If this is the case, it may be completely impossible to make the playoffs, so what is the benefit of moving up into PL? is it to work up the ladder and solidify a Div 1 position for classics?
Unregistered
28-11-07, 14:38
i think the swap over challange is a good idea, previously you had to have a team in every age group to qualify for div 1. this year you dont, hence the smaller associations have a chance to make it into div 1 without having to nominate a team in every other division.
Granted, the sth cup teams who are sucessful in the challenge game probably wont make the premier league finals with a complete swap of competetion data, however it gives the southern cup teams a chance to really see how good they are before the classics. Plus no-one forces them to challenge the div 1 teams.
im guessing "can't"
actually, the answer is that they elected not to challenge. I was at redlands the other night and they told me that bq rang them and asked them if they were going to challenge.
Unregistered
28-11-07, 17:05
actually, the answer is that they elected not to challenge. I was at redlands the other night and they told me that bq rang them and asked them if they were going to challenge.
Not challenging. what does that prove? I'd hate to think that winning is more important than challenging themselves by trying to play the highest possible level.
Unregistered
28-11-07, 17:47
Not challenging. what does that prove? I'd hate to think that winning is more important than challenging themselves by trying to play the highest possible level.
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM????? Why are you so fixated on what Redlands DO?
Are you inscure with the Club, they are new and doing quiet well just look at the ladders with in SC. I was there last weekend and was amazed with the the club support and sportsmanship. It was full on and a pleasure to watch.
Yes they can Challange but they choose not too. Is that so hard to believe, did you know there team is bottom age a junior U16 side.
Stop trying to put Redlands down! Theywill play Premier when they are ready!
Urban Legend
28-11-07, 19:07
i think there is a far worse problem on the horizon than the i you have stated above.
how is it fair that a southern cup team can make the playoffs?
i beleive that any team that has lost 3 games or more in PL and are currently in the top 4 are in grave danger of missing out to a southern cup team. by way of an example the under 16 comp both boys and girls.
both have 100% win l recordes and have huge scoring%
as the current 4th placed team in the under 16 PL girls has lost 3 games you could count on them losing at least 2 more at best that gives them a 9win 5 loss record. if the girls SC make it in to PL, as i understand it they carry there win and % in PL. therfore they go straight to the top of the ladder. now lets just assume that they manage to beat the 7th and 8th placed team they then finsih with 9wins and 5 losses..........
i think that you will find that this possibility applies in most of the comps and in my mind isnt fair.
this all goes back to the stupid half arsed trials format. you either do it right or leave it as it was.
BQ tried to fix something that wasnt broken.
You will find that if a SC team is promoted to PL then they will inherit the competition data from that PL team and the PL team will inherit the SC team's competition data.
So if the PL team is 2-5 and the SC team is 7-0 and the SC team is successful then starting Sunday the SC team will be 2-5 in PL and the PL team will now be 7-0 in SC.
Urban Legend
28-11-07, 19:10
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM????? Why are you so fixated on what Redlands DO?
Are you inscure with the Club, they are new and doing quiet well just look at the ladders with in SC. I was there last weekend and was amazed with the the club support and sportsmanship. It was full on and a pleasure to watch.
Yes they can Challange but they choose not too. Is that so hard to believe, did you know there team is bottom age a junior U16 side.
Stop trying to put Redlands down! Theywill play Premier when they are ready!
I think they were referring to the fact that the team is undefeated in SC so why not try to get into PL and give the boys more of a challenge. That was all but maybe not put in the right way. And yes you are correct it is everyone's right whether or not to challenge.
Unregistered
28-11-07, 19:49
They're actually very lucky to be undefeated, getting through a couple of games by the skin of their teeth. But, having said that, in an earlier post by someone who purported to be Redlands 2 coach describing the game against Redlands 1 said that his junior team beat the senior team. So if you take it that Redlands 2 are the bottom-age players from that association then a case could be made that they may as well stay in SC and have some fun being kings of the castle for the time being because PL might be a harsh wakeup call for them ( as it has been over the years for some of the more established associations). If they are bottom-age let them enjoy their basketball, plenty of time to step up to top age and PL.
Unregistered
28-11-07, 20:49
Go Redlands
Unregistered
28-11-07, 21:28
They're actually very lucky to be undefeated, getting through a couple of games by the skin of their teeth. But, having said that, in an earlier post by someone who purported to be Redlands 2 coach describing the game against Redlands 1 said that his junior team beat the senior team. So if you take it that Redlands 2 are the bottom-age players from that association then a case could be made that they may as well stay in SC and have some fun being kings of the castle for the time being because PL might be a harsh wakeup call for them ( as it has been over the years for some of the more established associations). If they are bottom-age let them enjoy their basketball, plenty of time to step up to top age and PL.
If they were beating teams convincingly they would be ready for the challenge. What if they win the SC final by 1pt, should they have challenged? Or are they playing in the right league? Maybe they will be up there next year? Who knows! They look like they love playing basketball and are enjoying being part of a team. So, I agree with this quote, let 'em play their game and advance when they are ready.
Unregistered
28-11-07, 21:56
Why not make new rules regarding the swap-over, your results are split between the 2 teams that are changing places then both teams have the chance to make the play-offs. EG. SC team is 6-1 and PL team is 2-5 then take an average and give both teams a result of 3-4 and give them both a chance to make it all the way. This way the relegated team will still have to beat everyone to get into the finals and earn their title. And the SC team if they are that good can also make it. All I see the challenge doing is enabling the relegated team to win a comp they didn't earn the right to win.
A challenge should only be offered to teams with a high percentage (140% or higher perhaps). Not a team with 112%. Or is it that the pre-season selection is flawed? And allows teams to enter PL wthout really deserving it.
THINK ABOUT IT?
If this is the case, it may be completely impossible to make the playoffs, so what is the benefit of moving up into PL? is it to work up the ladder and solidify a Div 1 position for classics?
Trying to gain 5th spot and automatic div1 selection isn't a bad reason to move up. Also, if you were preparing for the Wildcard Challenge, would you rather play against the best teams available that would give you a challenge (and possibly a touch up) or play against opposition that you may well spank by 80+ points...
i think the swap over challange is a good idea, previously you had to have a team in every age group to qualify for div 1. this year you dont, hence the smaller associations have a chance to make it into div 1 without having to nominate a team in every other division.
Still need to have a team in every age group to play div1, just don't need to start every team in div1.
Why not make new rules regarding the swap-over, your results are split between the 2 teams that are changing places then both teams have the chance to make the play-offs. EG. SC team is 6-1 and PL team is 2-5 then take an average and give both teams a result of 3-4 and give them both a chance to make it all the way. This way the relegated team will still have to beat everyone to get into the finals and earn their title. And the SC team if they are that good can also make it. All I see the challenge doing is enabling the relegated team to win a comp they didn't earn the right to win.
A challenge should only be offered to teams with a high percentage (140% or higher perhaps). Not a team with 112%. Or is it that the pre-season selection is flawed? And allows teams to enter PL wthout really deserving it.
THINK ABOUT IT?
Your idea about giving an average result of both teams would mean that a 6-1 team averged with a 2-5 team is the average of 8 and 6 (divided by 2 that's 4 and 3). Do sthn cup teams actually deserve to automatically be placed in the top4? I don't think so.
If they were good enough to make finals they were good enough to start out in div1.
The swap over idea was used in BSQ, with great success. Does more than rewarding the team that loses the challenge. It gives the winning team the chance to finish higher overall than any sthn cup team. Helps for the Harold Peacock shield. It gives them a better competition to play in, which would be more challenging to the players and ultimately improve them.
Depends on how you look at things, Glass half Full or Glass half Empty...
actually, the answer is that they elected not to challenge. I was at redlands the other night and they told me that bq rang them and asked them if they were going to challenge.
you would think they would have at least had a game, to see how they compared against a PL side.
after hearing they are bottom age, it would have been a good hitout to see how they stack up against a side which is mostly bottom age (7 players @ Wizards).
Do you have to pay more money if you make in PL or is it he same cost for a SC side?
ps squawky, wat are you doing at redlands anyway???
Unregistered
29-11-07, 08:56
Still need to have a team in every age group to play div1, just don't need to start every team in div1.
Wrong! Where does it say that in the rules? Any southern cup team who finishes top of the sth cup ladder can challange for div 1. The rules dont discriminate against those associations that dont have a team in every age group.
you would think they would have at least had a game, to see how they compared against a PL side.
after hearing they are bottom age, it would have been a good hitout to see how they stack up against a side which is mostly bottom age (7 players @ Wizards).
Do you have to pay more money if you make in PL or is it he same cost for a SC side?
ps squawky, wat are you doing at redlands anyway???
haha i had a bit of a run in a local muck around comp there the other night. keeps me out of trouble.
Unregistered
29-11-07, 10:46
SC Teams that have decided to challenge the PL teams:
If the 1st team in Southern Cup declines to challenge and the 2nd team in Southern Cup does challenge then the 2nd team in Southern Cup should play the 8th team in Premier League rather than the 7th team which will happen this year(2nd SC v 7th PL).
For example:
In U16 Girls this year, you have:
7th PL- Brisbane Silver (2 wins)
8th PL- Ipswich 1 (0 wins)
Because the 1st team in Southern Cup has declined to challenge, now Brisbane Silver has to play to stay in PL whereas Ipswich 1 don’t have to play which seems backwards. I know the rules are in place for this year but I am sure this will be changed next year.
There is also an issue with using percentages as a means of ranking the teams across two separate pools. This favours the team in the weaker pool as they will run up better percentages. Complicated even further when they have not played a full round against every other team in their pool.
Unregistered
29-11-07, 11:43
There is also an issue with using percentages as a means of ranking the teams across two separate pools. This favours the team in the weaker pool as they will run up better percentages. Complicated even further when they have not played a full round against every other team in their pool.
Aggreed, problem is that BQ are focused on making premier league better and have given little thought to Southern Cup (where the majority of teams play) when devising the new format. The pools concept is not ideal. However no use winging on here, come up with a solution and let BQ know.
Still need to have a team in every age group to play div1, just don't need to start every team in div1.
Wrong! Where does it say that in the rules? Any southern cup team who finishes top of the sth cup ladder can challange for div 1. The rules dont discriminate against those associations that dont have a team in every age group.
Page 4
General Rules
Changes to competition format
the second *
ii. in order to nominate to compete in the grading competition for Premier League, the association must have a team nominated in every age group and gender in the BQJBC (except under 20); however they may compete in any division; An Association must maintain a team in all age groups and genders for the period of the BQJBC competition for the year. Failure to do so will see that Association fined $200.00 per team withdrawn and the entire association will be forced to withdraw from the Premier League competition for the remainder of the season.
This would mean that any association with a team in div1 at any time during the BQJBC season must have a team in every age group and ever gender for the whole season.
Aggreed, problem is that BQ are focused on making premier league better and have given little thought to Southern Cup (where the majority of teams play) when devising the new format. The pools concept is not ideal. However no use winging on here, come up with a solution and let BQ know.
I think there is most likely a need for 3 divisions in quite a few age groups.
8 teams in PL, 8 in 2nd div, 6 in 3rd div would work in a few age groups now.
I know BQ have been given suggestions on grading for future years, and not just grading for div1.
Unregistered
29-11-07, 17:10
Page 4
General Rules
Changes to competition format
the second *
ii. in order to nominate to compete in the grading competition for Premier League, the association must have a team nominated in every age group and gender in the BQJBC (except under 20); however they may compete in any division; An Association must maintain a team in all age groups and genders for the period of the BQJBC competition for the year. Failure to do so will see that Association fined $200.00 per team withdrawn and the entire association will be forced to withdraw from the Premier League competition for the remainder of the season.
This would mean that any association with a team in div1 at any time during the BQJBC season must have a team in every age group and ever gender for the whole season.
unless of course they got into div 1 by winning the swap over challenge??????
Unregistered
29-11-07, 18:10
Trying to gain 5th spot and automatic div1 selection isn't a bad reason to move up. Also, if you were preparing for the Wildcard Challenge, would you rather play against the best teams available that would give you a challenge (and possibly a touch up) or play against opposition that you may well spank by 80+ points...
Still need to have a team in every age group to play div1, just don't need to start every team in div1.
Your idea about giving an average result of both teams would mean that a 6-1 team averged with a 2-5 team is the average of 8 and 6 (divided by 2 that's 4 and 3). Do sthn cup teams actually deserve to automatically be placed in the top4? I don't think so.
If they were good enough to make finals they were good enough to start out in div1.
The swap over idea was used in BSQ, with great success. Does more than rewarding the team that loses the challenge. It gives the winning team the chance to finish higher overall than any sthn cup team. Helps for the Harold Peacock shield. It gives them a better competition to play in, which would be more challenging to the players and ultimately improve them.
Depends on how you look at things, Glass half Full or Glass half Empty...
If you can be in the top 4 with a record like 4-3 and the team you relegated has 0-7, what are the chances you will win a game? I do believe that the relegated team is going to be a weaker team (if the challenge game is 'legit").
As for the evenness of the SC pools (A & B), why not swap over the pools for the second half of the season. You would still have the same ladder and a better idea of who really is top 4 material. 2nd place pool A might not beat the third place pool B. Then we could get the best finals series. I guess like U14 classics last year have division 3 finals.
Urban Legend
01-12-07, 18:31
Results From Auchenflower(4.00pm):
U18 Boys Capitals Silver, U16 Girls Capitals Silver, U12 Boys Capitals Gold & U16 Boys Capitals Silver all won.
Anything from Runaway Bay(U12 Girls, U12 Boys & U18 Boys), Toowoomba(U18 Girls), Runcorn(U14 Girls) or Maroochydore(U14 Boys)
Unregistered
01-12-07, 19:22
what was the score in 14 boy swap ova round
Unregistered
01-12-07, 21:29
runaway bay under 18 boys won with a close game runaway bay played great
both under 12 runaway bay teams sucked
Unregistered
05-12-07, 12:53
Does anyone know the results for the u14 girls? Are the results on the BQ website?
Unregistered
06-12-07, 00:01
what was the score in 14 boy swap ova round
wizards gave mdore a run for with mdore having a last ditch effort to retake the lead paying off however, wizards came back to snatch the game.
not sure of final score but was very close
and whats happening with the new draw
i heard that the wizards are playin at mdore as thats where the game was scedualed however seems silly to me
any light to be shed on the topic would be great :)
Unregistered
06-12-07, 06:27
I was speaking to Wiz coach after game at Logan Sunday morning & he was saying that the last game this weekend which was a M'dore home game still has to be played at M'dore but that he was hoping once the new year draw comes out, they will be back having home games at the E Centre
Unregistered
07-12-07, 16:41
what's BQ and co thinking putting the swap over on at the same time as the high school nationals in Geelong??
That makes zero sense.
what's BQ and co thinking putting the swap over on at the same time as the high school nationals in Geelong??
That makes zero sense.
Agreed! More to the point, does any one know how many Southern Cup teams were actually elevated to Premier League as a result of the swap over challenge?
Unregistered
09-12-07, 15:12
what's BQ and co thinking putting the swap over on at the same time as the high school nationals in Geelong??
That makes zero sense.
Not a lot of what comes out of that mad house up there makes any sense. Thats why basketball is the joke it is amongst state sporting organisations.
Unregistered
09-12-07, 16:36
Not a lot of what comes out of that mad house up there makes any sense. Thats why basketball is the joke it is amongst state sporting organisations.
exactly and most teams lost their best players the last couple of weeks because they're in geelong..
we weren't in the cross over but we would have been screwed if we were
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