sick to death of bias officating determinating outcomes

[phenom_54]

who else is feed up you read across all blogs on this site of cheating refs teams complaining of refs who trows techs on one team and none on others.

what do they think they are achieving by shafting teams????

you hear that maroochy have shocking refs and brisbane refs give no love especally when districts are involved and the coast refs well this will get bined if i say too much we'll just leave it at hopless. i know being from the coast.

when will the refs learn the game is for the players why cant they work with coaches(after all we do see reason at times) ? to achieve a standard of basketball that is not only attractive but benifical to all involved.

we all sit down and nail state coaches for selections but what about when some of the players are no longer protected by there friend of one eyed ref of the home assn protecting them.

why cant we get netural referee controllers at the venues so we can have a better standard of officating i know there is a cost involved but it would be cheaper to have the controller travel than have netural refs.

i urge all have something construstive to say to improve our game in the hope some referees might read this and descover only only true feelings but might see also the harm tham is being done. Coaches are more than welcome to express their views but lets do it with taste and respect as its not about giving the referees a serve but to help them understand what we are tring to achieve.

any just may be minimise tech fouls thrown cause of there agenda and misintreptation.

[Unregistered]

The reality is if the referee is being watched by any sort of decent evaluator, they will not be able to make biased calls as it will be picked up as an error and they will subsequently be reprimanded. This could include simply include not been able to referee at that level in the future or non-selection for representative tournaments etc.

The other issue is that any half decent game happens too quickly for an official to make a judgement call for the purpose of being biased. The simple fact of life is the officials will match the standard of the game, especially at a local association level. With that said the officials will probably make less errors than the players.

Further to these statements what a lot of people don't understand is that the officials really don't care who wins games at a local level, let alone at any level. Whether or not a team looses there will always be more games to referee for the official especially if the official referees well and is rewarded with finals games.

Wayne Bennett once said. "If you have anyone else but yourself to blame for the loss of a game you did not reach your full potential and you never will."

Simply put if you are good enough despite incorrect calls made you will still win. Officials will be wrong and calls may decide games but be good enough so this doesn't effect you. Even if there is a wrong call at the end of a game it was your responsibility to play better during the earlier stages. The officals never loose but you could if your not good enough.

Refereeing will always need improvement if your interested in winning games and not letting calls affect game outcomes get better don't spend time whinging about the officials.

[phenom_54]

yes understanding what you are saying is right to an extent . As im on the coast the games ive been involved in have been at home and we won those but i believe its better to say what you have to when you win as well cause when you lose and go on about the refs people believe all you do is winge rather than get results but when the winners start saying somthing you have to stand up and take notice.


i designed this post to find out what the rest of south east queensland think and feel on this topic as we alsoo want to know what are the genuine probliems so we can plan better for the officals at each venue.

i understand that there is diffrent interpertation of the rules not good enough evaluators, referees not being awre of what they are looking for and correct positioning for making calls.

i even would like to hear from any refs as to what they think the on going probliems are how they feel about the direction of the way our game is going so we can work to fix this.

[Unregistered]

yes understanding what you are saying is right to an extent . As im on the coast the games ive been involved in have been at home and we won those but i believe its better to say what you have to when you win as well cause when you lose and go on about the refs people believe all you do is winge rather than get results but when the winners start saying somthing you have to stand up and take notice.


i designed this post to find out what the rest of south east queensland think and feel on this topic as we alsoo want to know what are the genuine probliems so we can plan better for the officals at each venue.

i understand that there is diffrent interpertation of the rules not good enough evaluators, referees not being awre of what they are looking for and correct positioning for making calls.

i even would like to hear from any refs as to what they think the on going probliems are how they feel about the direction of the way our game is going so we can work to fix this.


BQ need to take control of the refs, as i believe each association is responcible for training andevaluating refs. In a perfect world every ref would be trained in the same manner. I think BQ need to assess all refs from all assoc.

[Unregistered]

im a ref and quite frankly i find the stabs at us in the first post unjustified and rediculas
u see referees officiating at NBL and NBA games who make mistakes! ITS HUMAN ERROR. ever heard of the word "turnover" its the term we use when a player makes a mistake! Referees do too, why is it called bias! Ive seen and reffed with a lot of the junior officials from across SEQ and yes there are a few who are still learning and should not be thrown into some of the games that they are... but this is a VERY rare occurrence. How do u expect us to produce more refs like Scott Buttler if u don't let the juniors learn! and if u keep throwing this kind of criticism towards the officials ouur going to end up with no one wanting to pick up the whistle!

far out... grow the f_ _k up

BTW i have seen many rep and ABA games on the coast.... and there are some great referees there despite the lack of a decent training program so quit ur bit _ _ing

[phenom_54]

so when you stand you and take accountability yes you are human and i will always accept human error.

its the bias one sided rubbish that all teams put up with.

our players do make turnovers but pressure from oppisition is going to cause that.

where dose refs pressure come from. you call what you see if you didnt see it dont call it.

im over seeing referees make calls out of position or calling incorrectly. some refs had called a block to the bench and when ive questained they have said my player bruoght their hands down and hacked or held. how can we correct the wrong call.

also since when has it been professional for a referre to tell coaches and players to grow up or swear at us EVEN ON A BLOG SITE and you want our respect (good luck) especally when the first post which i wrote did not attack or abuse refs but to try and find a solution as its not just from my experances its what ive read on this site from match reports.

im an ex ref an threw it in cuase of ploitics within the referees assn im more than happy to talk to refs but they need to get out of there clicky little im better the game groups and come and talk to us.

[Unregistered]

sorry for swearing... i got caught in the heat of the moment

i agree there needs to be a more standardized approach to referee education but i know of and have seen no evidence of ANY refs who intentionally make bias calls or throw games

[DaDunker]

[quote=Unregistered;2518]sorry for swearing... i got caught in the heat of the moment

I agree there needs to be a more standardized approach to referee education but i know of and have seen no evidence of ANY refs who intentionally make bias calls or throw games[/quote

Happy New year to all

I'm surprised that there hasn't been more debate on this subject given the emotion that it evokes after many games (usually if your team has lost). I agree with the general comments that refs make mistakes and can be unsighted but what upsets most is inconsistency. Too often a call is made at one end and then a similar occourence occurs at the other end and the foul is not called. Also some refs tend to let the game "run" whilst others are more technical. In the past refs used to explain at the start of games what their intention was. They also laid down the law if was likely to be a tough/spiteful game as to what they would tolerate. Basically there was more communication between players and refs, and the players understood where they were at. These days you can go from a ref who makes minimum calls one week, to another ref the next week who will call every bit of contact. This causes confusion and dissent.

As far as education goes, not only should refs be better educated, but so should players. How many coaches provide copies of the FIFA rules for their players to study? (maybe armchair spectators/parents should also be provided with copies so that their loud protestations to refs could at least be better informed).

[Squawky]

or for that matter, what percentage of coaches have been through the FIBA rules cover to cover themselves.

[LukeP]

No no gilboy...im pretty sure allcoaches are reading the soccer rule book.

/poke

[phenom_54]

No no gilboy...im pretty sure allcoaches are reading the soccer rule book.

/poke

mate ill take this as a piss take but i dont read the soccor rule book its a pathic game who wants to watch 90mins for 0-0 when you can watch 48 for over 100+ points

but im a level 2 coach and more rule intrepertation needs to be covered why cant we as coaches be forced to do a level 0 every 3 years or so would you cover the most rule content there or would level 1 be benifical.


as for the ref apoligy accepted heat can be a pain ,but coaches can be judged on results and if you get it wrong just say so.
we can only accept that. same if your out of position how hard is it say you were beaten thats easier to take than a guess!

[Unregistered]

ahahaha with some of the coach's ive seen.... i wouldnt be surprised if they were reading the soccer rule book!

[Unregistered]

where dose refs pressure come from. you call what you see if you didnt see it dont call it.


im an ex ref an threw it in cuase of ploitics within the referees assn im more than happy to talk to refs but they need to get out of there clicky little im better the game groups and come and talk to us.

DC + Web + Paul

So when you where reffing, you did not feel pressure from players, coaches, spectators, evaluators and fellow ref's,,

Well done to you mate, you must be able to handle anything! If you felt no pressure as a ref, why do you go then apply pressure on refs to make the extra few calls here and there??

Just remember we are all only human, we do make mistakes and so will you as a coach...

We do understand where you are coming from, but theres always two sides to every story.

Cheers,,
DC + Web + Paul

Ps: Keep up the good work Pookie =]

[phenom_54]

[QUOTE=Unregistered;2562]DC + Web + Paul

So when you where reffing, you did not feel pressure from players, coaches, spectators, evaluators and fellow ref's,,

Well done to you mate, you must be able to handle anything! If you felt no pressure as a ref, why do you go then apply pressure on refs to make the extra few calls here and there??

Just remember we are all only human, we do make mistakes and so will you as a coach...

We do understand where you are coming from, but theres always two sides to every story.


yes but i was told harsh facts and this is not about excuses its about bridging the gap if you notice people havnt been personaly attcking the refs here they are voicing general concerns if the refs read this and take it on board then good.
or if we could work together then even better.
as a coach i set up goals for us to achieve but through constant inconsistancy we are stuck with where we are going.
as i said earlier you hear of teams going to certain places and getting the harsh end of the whistle.
i dont want the refs to change completly i just want to know how to coach my team so we can play to the officals they will never change the way they call a game we have to adapt and change but it would help to know what to adapt to.

[Unregistered]

Thank God Referees are not autobots.

I have seen many referees and not very many that are biased. I think coaches think that because calls go against them the referee may be biased. It is usually from inexperience that this issue arises.

BQ has never implemented a proper referee program at the grass roots. Also BQ needs to decide what level of officiating they require at a particular level and then force associations to comply. From what I have seen most associations do not have a good enough program in place (apart from possibly Brisbane and Spartans in the South East)

From what I have seen BQ runs courses but referees are then left to out in the cold as far as development is concerned. They need to train more educators and have those educators teaching along the same lines so there is a consistency.

In closing while referees need to make a judgement call there will always be differences. What one referee perceives as incidental contact another may judge as a foul but hopefully there is not a giant gulf.

[Unregistered]

I think that the problem stems from the lack of training, testing and respect given to refs in general.

I used to ref, but gave it up after copping the abuse from parents both during and after the games. The associations have no teeth or if they have they don't want to use them to enforce a policy of the players or parents respecting a refs decision and any behaviour outside of that either should result in some sort of judicary hearing if it is serious enough. In the 10 years I've been involved in basketball, I have never seen any parent or supporter dealt with by an association.

Once a firm policy is adopted, people will want to come back and ref. Also the refs themselves should be looked to make sure that their way of officating is fair to both sides. This should be done through education , not waiving a big stick. There is a need to raise the bar to bring a level of quality back to officating of the sport. Giving a kid a whistle and letting them go with minimal training is not the way to go. They should also be better trained on how to handle the situations that may arise during a game not just the technical aspects.

I tired of putting in my time coaching at games when the refs are either not interested in making the calls or they appear to be there to fill in time as they don't have another part time job.I have seen many younger refs aboslutely ruin a good game by being intimidated by either the opposing coach, players or parents.


One of the things is that we all are involved in basketball to enjoy it. No one should be detered from doing that.

[Unregistered]

hi all.

i am a competitive player and a referee so i get to see the world from both sides. what i seem to see with some referees/ is that the assosciations that dont have good education programs or none at all generally are the ones with the lower standard officiating and tend to crack a little more when abused. theres not really any way to adapt if the referee is being biased although i would find it next to never you would see a biased referee but yet an inexperienced ref who cant keep their consistancy up. one way to handle the situation is strap yourself in for a long ride, play hard and hope for the best.

now another point to previous posts is that there is just as much pressure on the referee as a player although its not physical pressure as a player would feel but more a mental battle at times. most of the time its stuck in your head telling yurself to do a good job. and 9 times out of 10 you will get an abusive player(s) or coaches which can add to stress and pressure during a game.

A better way for referees/players/coaches to be able to get along easier is maybe to approach a referee with a politely asked question at an appropriate time upon a call you didnt like or ongoing events during a game. but screaming and yelling at an official definately wont get your way. i have seen many times where a teammate has abused a referee and ended up with a tech foul and also times where i have had to give technical fouls because the coach or player just couldnt help themselves but to unleash anger upon me or a teammate official.
as long as kindness is added in then people can get along, its simple human friendliness.


btw not looking for an argumentitive dispute. just sharing a point of view.

[DaDunker]

hi all.

i am a competitive player and a referee so i get to see the world from both sides. what i seem to see with some referees/ is that the assosciations that dont have good education programs or none at all generally are the ones with the lower standard officiating and tend to crack a little more when abused. theres not really any way to adapt if the referee is being biased although i would find it next to never you would see a biased referee but yet an inexperienced ref who cant keep their consistancy up. one way to handle the situation is strap yourself in for a long ride, play hard and hope for the best.

now another point to previous posts is that there is just as much pressure on the referee as a player although its not physical pressure as a player would feel but more a mental battle at times. most of the time its stuck in your head telling yurself to do a good job. and 9 times out of 10 you will get an abusive player(s) or coaches which can add to stress and pressure during a game.

A better way for referees/players/coaches to be able to get along easier is maybe to approach a referee with a politely asked question at an appropriate time upon a call you didnt like or ongoing events during a game. but screaming and yelling at an official definately wont get your way. i have seen many times where a teammate has abused a referee and ended up with a tech foul and also times where i have had to give technical fouls because the coach or player just couldnt help themselves but to unleash anger upon me or a teammate official.
as long as kindness is added in then people can get along, its simple human friendliness.


btw not looking for an argumentitive dispute. just sharing a point of view.

Seems to reflect a general lack of discipline which is prevalent these days in that authority is regularly and unnecessarily challanged. I agree that if a coach is having a problem with a particular referee, a quiet word at an appropriate break requesting their interpretation is more likely to produce a better outcome.

Similarly I believe that refs need to get tougher with coaches and players and not take the sort of abuse that is regularly dished out. A warning followed by a tech and then off. Associations need to support this tough line. I have rarely seen a ref change a decision after being subjected to a torrent of abuse. More likely, they will get more picky with fouls on the team that has verballed them.
Maybe a pre season coaches/referee bonding session is required

[Unregistered]

I coach junior Aussie Rules. I am not allowed to approach/question the umpire unless I make a request via a ground marshall. Normally he will arrange a quick meeting with the ump at 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 time, with the other coach as well. System works fine with no ranting/raving/heat of the moment comments - and the young ump has an ally present in the form of the ground marshall if things should get heated.

I'm constantly amazed at basketball coaches who give it to the refs in a most inappropriate manner. It has been a real eye-opener observing the different cultures between the sports with respect to umpiring/reffing. In fact, openly disputing calls in basketball is effectively condoned by the sport (even at the junior level).

There doesn't seem to be any support for the refs at club - or even rep level(well none that I've seen, apart from at Classics etc). I've even observed association management sit back and say "we'll see how she handles this" when an up and coming ref was on the receiving end of a blast from a repeat offender coach.

A new approach to the coach-ref relationship would be great. I'd go for no comments at all from the bench to the ref at all. Only at quarter breaks & time-outs can coaches talk to refs, and only with a more senior official also present.

No refs/umps = no games, so we need teach respect - plus , at the same time have processes in place where young & developing refs can get unbiased & pretty well immediate feedback.

As I tell my kids - when, and only when you play the perfect, mistake free game - will you be qualified to make even the smallest advice to the umps.

[Unregistered]

Why do we always blame a ref, everyone makes mistakes even in national competitions. I agree with the previous post, zero tolerance to questioning refs, and I'm sure our kids will benifit from it in the long run. Just hope I can keep my mouth shut this weekend.

Even the refs deserve a fair go as much as a bench player or rookie coach, we all start somewhere!

[Unregistered]

this isnt about making mistakes its about bias and cheating why do we get heated cause a call is made at one end and not at the other 1 team can jump over backs for a rebound 1 team cant.

that is what is infureating everyone!

we all agree that they are human but some of crap that is being called in tight games is either a soft make up call or a weak call to either push an advantge by free throws and a cheap foul on a key player.

ground marshell ha leave that on the afl field if what we are saying is over the top a tach foul is there for that we 2 and we are gone simple if the ref isnt giong to use those and it gets out of hand they should of delt with it earlier.

the whole silent treatment idea is ok but the interaction with the officals can help with adjustments.

i think it comes back to making sure that a snr refs and jnr refs are pared up and the snr ref teach the jnr refs how to interact.
i know a coach full of emotion can be daunting but talking to them with respect will gain respect back.

[Unregistered]

this isnt about making mistakes its about bias and cheating why do we get heated cause a call is made at one end and not at the other 1 team can jump over backs for a rebound 1 team cant.


What do you think constitutes a foul here?

[Unregistered]

What do you think constitutes a foul here?

This is a hard one especially when the difference in hight can mean u get the board without touching the oposition.

I understand what you are saying, though. Lets not forget that a few calls in a game are 50/50 calls, why is it that refs dont communicate with each other before the game to make sure they call the same game. One that I was involved in 1 ref called the body contact in transition and the other didnt, as it turned out we seemed to have the non-calling ref most of the time. If its an advantage thing, wouldnt you play differently if you were getting riden up the court?

Rules
I say get rid of the arrow, get rid of advantage and bring back the foul is a foul mentality. Any contact should be determined by the instigater of that contact. In the early 80s you knew what to expect, now its all 50/50. And left to interpritation.my thought

Education
Central educator dept from BQ and every ref should be assessed at least once a month. And you should have it done silently, if you tell someone u are being assessed they ref a different game. Have a look next time u see an evaluation happening.

Abusing refs
Have you thought about a yellow/red card for coachs, get 2 yellow in 2 games and u sit out the 3rd?

[Unregistered]

This is a hard one especially when the difference in hight can mean u get the board without touching the oposition.

I understand what you are saying, though. Lets not forget that a few calls in a game are 50/50 calls, why is it that refs dont communicate with each other before the game to make sure they call the same game. One that I was involved in 1 ref called the body contact in transition and the other didnt, as it turned out we seemed to have the non-calling ref most of the time. If its an advantage thing, wouldnt you play differently if you were getting riden up the court?

Rules
I say get rid of the arrow, get rid of advantage and bring back the foul is a foul mentality. Any contact should be determined by the instigater of that contact. In the early 80s you knew what to expect, now its all 50/50. And left to interpritation.my thought

Education
Central educator dept from BQ and every ref should be assessed at least once a month. And you should have it done silently, if you tell someone u are being assessed they ref a different game. Have a look next time u see an evaluation happening.

Abusing refs
Have you thought about a yellow/red card for coachs, get 2 yellow in 2 games and u sit out the 3rd?

rules and education i strongy agree maybe we need to go back to soft calls to make coaches do the job properly elimate the short cuts players are taking.


abusing refs why do we have techinal fouls if the refs wont talk to us and let us go its their own fault respect is a two way streak its good that they dont hide behind tech fouls but coaches get one they usaly shut up.

maybe to help out coache should fill out a report form after games sighting the venue the standard of playing enviorment score bench and even the refereeing issues at least then bq see this and can address it and if not the coaches should be forcing the assns to hold bq accountable for sorting out the game in this state as the state body its their responsibility to ensure things get better.

[Unregistered]

You think BQ is interested in referees. They are not. There is no real structure in place. Other than the annual referee conference there is no co-ordinated effort to educators on the same page let alone enough educators. No other program after the conference which has just occurred for 12 months. No reviews or mid season get togethers to see how season is going.

As far as Juniors are concerned there are always too few educators and not enough quality referees for classics

[Unregistered]

why is it that refs dont communicate with each other before the game to make sure they call the same game. ?

They do
its called a Pre Game

The importance is drilled into refs at classics

I know of ref refs who dont have a pre game on rep and above

[Unregistered]

edit:
dont know of many refs ....

[Unregistered]

edit:
dont know of many refs ....

dont know of many GOOD refs ....

[Unregistered]

I was watching a game on the w/end and it was hillarious to see the away team whinging and whining about the refs, I openly laughed at some of their antics and complaints, as they clearly don't know the rules themselves. I am not going to mention where the game was as I remember the visiting teams home referees being the worst that we played against in the whole competition. And I don't want to cop a biased call next time we go there to play. They complained about fouls the most, even though both teams went to the stripe in nearly all quarters.
Some of the parents do need to read the rules as they were shocking, yes there was some missed calls but it did happen at both ends.
I reacon the best games I have watched have been the ones that the spectators have contained themselves as it was a FAIR call. Even both ways. And yes there was some shocking calls.
Watch the game,shut up and enjoy the fact that our kids are playing a sport, not video games!

[Unregistered]

I was watching a game on the w/end and it was hillarious to see the away team whinging and whining about the refs, I openly laughed at some of their antics and complaints, as they clearly don't know the rules themselves. I am not going to mention where the game was as I remember the visiting teams home referees being the worst that we played against in the whole competition. And I don't want to cop a biased call next time we go there to play. They complained about fouls the most, even though both teams went to the stripe in nearly all quarters.
Some of the parents do need to read the rules as they were shocking, yes there was some missed calls but it did happen at both ends.
I reacon the best games I have watched have been the ones that the spectators have contained themselves as it was a FAIR call. Even both ways. And yes there was some shocking calls.
Watch the game,shut up and enjoy the fact that our kids are playing a sport, not video games!

oh come on where was this team playing

[Unregistered]

oh come on where was this team playing

Guess?

[Unregistered]

i would take a guess at either GC, Redlands or Districts.

officiating gets a little nasty their especially with spectators, with in saying that also districts do have that quality structure for refs.. some just lack quality.

[Unregistered]

what would be nice is to see referees being taught how to communicate with people..i think it is fair and reasonable for a coach/player to ask a question to determine an interpretation, so he/she can instruct their team. many refs are so paranoid about their decisions being questioned, they have forgotten the art of discussion. Sometimes a simple "coach this is the way I saw it" or "I thought he/she didn't have position" etc is enough....on the topic of "perceived bias".....maroochy and cairns get more than a fair run at home from personal experience..independant refs at qabl, premier league, classics, top of the north would be heaven and stop the arguments about bias....but qld is far too big to accomodate this - but it could happen. Michael Aylen, Billy Mildenhall and Scott Butler are terrific communicators and are always willing to have a chat with players/coaches during the game where appropriate...is BQ using this talent to help develop their refs...

[Unregistered]

Michael Aylen, Billy Mildenhall and Scott Butler are terrific communicators and are always willing to have a chat with players/coaches during the game where appropriate.

These are the operative words

Are coaches taught when to ask a question instead of questioning every other call.

I have seen coaches whining about trifles but when they really get screwed by a call they do not realise it because their rule knowledge is so poor.

[Unregistered]

i would take a guess at either GC, Redlands or Districts.

officiating gets a little nasty their especially with spectators, with in saying that also districts do have that quality structure for refs.. some just lack quality.

removed: off-topic

[Unregistered]

i would take a guess at either GC, Redlands or Districts.

officiating gets a little nasty their especially with spectators, with in saying that also districts do have that quality structure for refs.. some just lack quality.

Good guess, you have picked them. Still not saying which one though, sorry!

[Unregistered]

Good guess, you have picked them. Still not saying which one though, sorry!

Well there were no games at Redlands on weekend so that leaves GC or Spartans.

I do not think you could classify Gold Coast as the worst referees and besides there were only two games at GC so I am now guessing it must have been Spartans.

[Unregistered]

Well there were no games at Redlands on weekend so that leaves GC or Spartans.

I do not think you could classify Gold Coast as the worst referees and besides there were only two games at GC so I am now guessing it must have been Spartans.

You from Gold Coast or somethin?

[Unregistered]

You from Gold Coast or somethin?

If you mean from Gold Coast Basketball the answer is no

Gold Coast has a history of producing some good officials. What is problem now

[Unregistered]

If you mean from Gold Coast Basketball the answer is no

Gold Coast has a history of producing some good officials. What is problem now

Agree with that commetn im from brisbane, i coached at gold caost several times and got equal reffing to capitals, some call were nasty but you get them at every game, you cant pickl on one association, redlands is still growing so give them a while to bring up refs. I might be quite nast to refs at time but there has never been one game and shook there hand and said good joba dn thank you. You deserve a pat on the back because everyone else that bitches about you wont step up to the plate
Cheers

[DaDunker]

It is of concern that the standard of refereeing has deteriorated drastically over the last two days of the U16 boys Classics. The first two days there were some fairly decent calls, however some recent games have been shockers with an unacceptable percentage of bad calls. I heard that all the senior referees left for the U18 comp yesterday. I believe it is unacceptable to put up with substandard referees at Classics especially during semi finals.

[LukeP]

And your solution for this is?

I know majority of senior refs that were helping out at 16's were helping with education of the juniors, and if they didnt leave to ref at 18's, who would covers the games in townsville?

[Unregistered]

there was only 1 senior ref who left for 18s to ref(who was refereeing not evaluating at 16s)... all the other refs left as PLAYERS

[Unregistered]

seriously, you people should actually read what you are writing. Refereeing is not as easy as it seems. its not just about the calls we make, but it is also about how the players and coaches are handled. we get critisied on every single little mistake we make by not only the evaluators on the game but every person watching the game.

so every person that has every critisised a referee at a classics, nationals or even in a club game, why dont you pick up a whistle and ref a div1 classics game that has a 2 point difference in the scores and see how well you handle it. trust me, it is alot harder than we make it seem. you get out of it the easy way just yelling from the sidelines

OUR CHOICES, OUR COURT, OUR TIME

[Unregistered]

seriously, you people should actually read what you are writing. Refereeing is not as easy as it seems. its not just about the calls we make, but it is also about how the players and coaches are handled. we get critisied on every single little mistake we make by not only the evaluators on the game but every person watching the game.


so every person that has every critisised a referee at a classics, nationals or even in a club game, why dont you pick up a whistle and ref a div1 classics game that has a 2 point difference in the scores and see how well you handle it. trust me, it is alot harder than we make it seem. you get out of it the easy way just yelling from the sidelines

OUR CHOICES, OUR COURT, OUR TIME

+1
touche

[Unregistered]

The reality is if the referee is being watched by any sort of decent evaluator, they will not be able to make biased calls as it will be picked up as an error and they will subsequently be reprimanded. This could include simply include not been able to referee at that level in the future or non-selection for representative tournaments etc.

The other issue is that any half decent game happens too quickly for an official to make a judgement call for the purpose of being biased. The simple fact of life is the officials will match the standard of the game, especially at a local association level. With that said the officials will probably make less errors than the players.

Further to these statements what a lot of people don't understand is that the officials really don't care who wins games at a local level, let alone at any level. Whether or not a team looses there will always be more games to referee for the official especially if the official referees well and is rewarded with finals games.

Wayne Bennett once said. "If you have anyone else but yourself to blame for the loss of a game you did not reach your full potential and you never will."

Simply put if you are good enough despite incorrect calls made you will still win. Officials will be wrong and calls may decide games but be good enough so this doesn't effect you. Even if there is a wrong call at the end of a game it was your responsibility to play better during the earlier stages. The officals never loose but you could if your not good enough.

Refereeing will always need improvement if your interested in winning games and not letting calls affect game outcomes get better don't spend time whinging about the officials.

Bravo-well said!

Watching years of ball...my comment here after observing U16 boys classics refs is that there is a fine line between club refing and classic refing. Some of those refs at the boys classics missed basic fundamentals in a very intense (div 1 level) competition, ie foot on line equals 2 pter not a 3pter, shot clock mistakes that refs should be watching to pick up but didn't, tech fouling young players for comments not abusive or profane but frustration and questioning.....blerp Tech goes the ref. There are so many more examples, but I hope my point is understood. The associations that are sending the young AND old refs along to ref these comps need to make sure those refs ARE READY for this level of competition.

[Unregistered]

It is of concern that the standard of refereeing has deteriorated drastically over the last two days of the U16 boys Classics. The first two days there were some fairly decent calls, however some recent games have been shockers with an unacceptable percentage of bad calls. I heard that all the senior referees left for the U18 comp yesterday. I believe it is unacceptable to put up with substandard referees at Classics especially during semi finals.

Agreed. First 2 days I was really enjoying the classics. As a coach I was impressed with the young refs running the games. Good calls and interpritations of the advantage rule. Shorty and a couple of others were great. Thankyou!

Now as a ref, coach and player I had one problem. I was Teched for instructing my own player. I had a big on Three fouls in the second Qtr. So i Quieried the calls at half time through my captain. 1st call of the third was another block by my big who was hit in the stomach, yes he was in a defensive position. As any coach would do, I then asked the question "what does he need to do to avoid getting these soft fouls?". The ref turned and said, "He always turns at ithe point of contact". (Which was not vocalised to my captain.)

Trust me this kid is 6'4 and 95 kg a state AFL player and never has turned away from any contact.

I turned to my player and proceeded to tell him what not to do, and you'd never guess what happened next? TECH FOUL AWARDED TO THE COACH!

These calls cost us a spot in the final 4 play offs for div 2. The Burdikin coach asked me after the game how did I control myself so well after those calls? I am a believer in less contact with a ref the better, but I found it very hard not to get myself thrown out of the stadium, if it wasnt for the fact I coached 13 yr old boys I probably would have.

Has anyone else had this happen to them? Not complaining just asking for some sort of reasoning. I ve been refing for 15 yrs and never Teched a coach for this.

Please explain?

[Finalist_10]

[QUOTE=Unregistered;2562]DC + Web + Paul

yes but i was told harsh facts and this is not about excuses its about bridging the gap if you notice people havnt been personaly attcking the refs here they are voicing general concerns if the refs read this and take it on board then good.
or if we could work together then even better.
as a coach i set up goals for us to achieve but through constant inconsistancy we are stuck with where we are going.
as i said earlier you hear of teams going to certain places and getting the harsh end of the whistle.
i dont want the refs to change completly i just want to know how to coach my team so we can play to the officals they will never change the way they call a game we have to adapt and change but it would help to know what to adapt to.

I'd like to know what 'facts' you've heard in relation to SEQ refereeing? Just curious..

I've not come across any bias refereeing at a rep level. :D

I do agree, need more educators! Thing is, more educators doesn't necessarily mean consistent refereeing. It's more what the referees take in from their post games. Whether they let go of their bad habits and implement the help that has been handed to them, then yes..referees will improve!

[phenom_54]

[QUOTE=phenom_54;2642]

I'd like to know what 'facts' you've heard in relation to SEQ refereeing? Just curious..

I've not come across any bias refereeing at a rep level. :D

I do agree, need more educators! Thing is, more educators doesn't necessarily mean consistent refereeing. It's more what the referees take in from their post games. Whether they let go of their bad habits and implement the help that has been handed to them, then yes..referees will improve!

the harsh facts that i was told was that i was paid to referee there for i was a professioal referee. no matter how much you get for a game and what level the game is. I was expected to keep up to date with rules learn how to deal with coaches and players do work shops and self anaylissis of my self on video. areas covered were positioning calls made not made and also calling the correct calls in the correct area interaction with other officals and players and coaches.
but those facts arnt for me to run around and preech that has to come form with in the refs orginastion.

whats happened here is poeple are mistaken as to why i started this.
I was looking for info on the probliem in counted by both coaches and referees so we can some how bridge the gap.

you go into a stadium and players and coaches sit together and referees sit on their own i know that the rescourses are thin but may be we can help it think it comes down to referees not understanding what we are trying to achive in the game and you can tell a coach who only whats to talk about his / her own teams goals and not whats best for the comp.

as alot of people have said here its about the referees calling somthing at one end and not at the other. its where its gets over the top as its a game of emotions i hate giong at refs and im guilty for it but ill side with ref on a correct call every time and some of my players have hated that about me but thats where they deserve the backing.

[Unregistered]

as a coach my biggest frustration is 'assumption' calls..

ie a referee says to a defensive player 'hands, hands' ie, 'keep your hands out'. the defender heeds the warning and the play continues. The ref then calls a hands foul a few moments later when he/she cannot possibly see it (viewed blcked by the offensive player and other players).

From the bench I could see clear space between my player (the defender) and the opposition player. I'm pretty sure the other official was in a better position and didn't make a call.

The same thing happened on a 'blocking' call. I'll wear a hands foul or a block call if they're right and i'll tell my players to wear the call. But calls sometime seem to be made because the ref is looking for a call, rather than thinking 'that's good defence'

hope i've made some sense. I generally don't get too carried away with refs or point the finger, but the assumption calls frustrate me.

[Unregistered]

seriously, you people should actually read what you are writing. Refereeing is not as easy as it seems. its not just about the calls we make, but it is also about how the players and coaches are handled. we get critisied on every single little mistake we make by not only the evaluators on the game but every person watching the game.

so every person that has every critisised a referee at a classics, nationals or even in a club game, why dont you pick up a whistle and ref a div1 classics game that has a 2 point difference in the scores and see how well you handle it. trust me, it is alot harder than we make it seem. you get out of it the easy way just yelling from the sidelines

OUR CHOICES, OUR COURT, OUR TIME

Good on you.
I've just started my reffereeing career, and I must admit, it really isn't as easy as it seems. Even during club games in U14 div 2, the amount of pressure that is put on me as ref to make the right call is amazing.
As said before, it's so much easier to yell, scream and abuse a ref, but it's not making the situation any better. It just makes the ref more agitated, annoyed, and distracted.

[Unregistered]

As a referee co-ordinator on the Coast I think I should put all your concerns to rest.

The referee courses are BQ approved but, are run by educators/co-ordinators from the associations not out of BQ.

We as Co-Ordinators value and respect our refs and protect them constantly from abuse from players, spectators and yes, coaches. Why is it that an adult coach think they can abuse a begginer learning referee in an Under 10 or 12 game and then demand respect. (I dont think so) Then wonder why 2 weeks later will complain why the association cant get more refs on the courts.

Yes I am in total agreement, Standard Rules. How many rules should we be following (FIBA, BA and then there are the local Associations) There are so many rules to be guided by, but unfortunately every ref will view different situations in different ways. Yes it could have been a hands foul, or a block or both so what do you call if its both. eg (Guy reached in made contact but forced the disadavantge to the player in going to the basket because of bad defence). I am not here to point blame and I do meet with my association coaches regularly.

The biggest threat facing associations at the moment is the extreme shortage in refs. This has forced us to make sacrifices in our education on game nights because we have to take the courts ourselves. A delema that I hope someone has an answer for. (By the way do coaches ever get up players for abusing refs)

Thank God Referees are not autobots.

I have seen many referees and not very many that are biased. I think coaches think that because calls go against them the referee may be biased. It is usually from inexperience that this issue arises.

BQ has never implemented a proper referee program at the grass roots. Also BQ needs to decide what level of officiating they require at a particular level and then force associations to comply. From what I have seen most associations do not have a good enough program in place (apart from possibly Brisbane and Spartans in the South East)

From what I have seen BQ runs courses but referees are then left to out in the cold as far as development is concerned. They need to train more educators and have those educators teaching along the same lines so there is a consistency.

In closing while referees need to make a judgement call there will always be differences. What one referee perceives as incidental contact another may judge as a foul but hopefully there is not a giant gulf.

[cozza]

im a ref and quite frankly i find the stabs at us in the first post unjustified and rediculas
u see referees officiating at NBL and NBA games who make mistakes! ITS HUMAN ERROR. ever heard of the word "turnover" its the term we use when a player makes a mistake! Referees do too, why is it called bias! Ive seen and reffed with a lot of the junior officials from across SEQ and yes there are a few who are still learning and should not be thrown into some of the games that they are... but this is a VERY rare occurrence. How do u expect us to produce more refs like Scott Buttler if u don't let the juniors learn! and if u keep throwing this kind of criticism towards the officials ouur going to end up with no one wanting to pick up the whistle!

far out... grow the f_ _k up

BTW i have seen many rep and ABA games on the coast.... and there are some great referees there despite the lack of a decent training program so quit ur bit _ _ing

its not so much human error alot of the time as just poor training - refs should all be trained by bq. players should also have to have at least 3 years of -playing experience with an association before reffing - u see 12 year olds reffing games and getting abused by coaches - its not good for them, and its not good for the players.

[Unregistered]

its not so much human error alot of the time as just poor training - refs should all be trained by bq. players should also have to have at least 3 years of -playing experience with an association before reffing - u see 12 year olds reffing games and getting abused by coaches - its not good for them, and its not good for the players.

So who's fault is this? the assosiation for encouraging people to come and ref (especially in this time of need), the kid for giving it a go, or the coach for driving young officials out of the game.

I mean, in jr basketball, coaches shouldnt be abusing anyone, kids are there to learn, not only playing, but refereeing too. Junior basketball is where you get that exposure, we cant have a 3 year plan, because right now we dont have enough referees, we are putting the same ones through everything, and they get worn out and leave the game, and if you have coaches driving them away at jr level, you have noone to replace them.

If your one of these coaches, you should take a good hard look at why you are coaching, develoment is required everywhere. Coaches need to take pride in what they are doing, and worry about the devlopment of the players, not what the referee is doing, most assosiations have coordinators watching games, some even have educators, its there job to point out the errors in a way not to drive them away. Strait out abuse helps noone. Coaches like that need to pull there head in, or come coach senior level, so more experienced refs can deal with them...

[Unregistered]

its not so much human error alot of the time as just poor training - refs should all be trained by bq. players should also have to have at least 3 years of -playing experience with an association before reffing - u see 12 year olds reffing games and getting abused by coaches - its not good for them, and its not good for the players.

So you are saying the referee coaches are all terrible teachers. If so you know very little about our coaches. Our biggest problem is unlearning the crap they have learnt from their coaches or televised games.

As a previous poster has said we need more educators and the ability for us as educators talk to the young official after the game instead of the doing 4 or 5 games in a row and no time to listen and learn and improve.

The BQJBC schedule needs to be adjusted so we can prepare referees for classics. Usually they can only just do a lower grade game and then play so no or only a limited chance of improving them.

[DaDunker]

So you are saying the referee coaches are all terrible teachers. If so you know very little about our coaches. Our biggest problem is unlearning the crap they have learnt from their coaches or televised games.

As a previous poster has said we need more educators and the ability for us as educators talk to the young official after the game instead of the doing 4 or 5 games in a row and no time to listen and learn and improve.

The BQJBC schedule needs to be adjusted so we can prepare referees for classics. Usually they can only just do a lower grade game and then play so no or only a limited chance of improving them.

Good point. Just as coaches get a chance to debrief their players after a game so too should ref mentors.

[Unregistered]

Good point. Just as coaches get a chance to debrief their players after a game so too should ref mentors.

I agree. I get debriefed by the ref co-ordinator/mentor/whatever-you-want-to-call-them after every game. I'm told what I did wrong, what I did right, and what I could improve on. It's great :D

[Unregistered]

Referees please do not approach coaches to discuss an issue you have during a time out. or even just before a time out. The best way is to approach them as the time out is finishing, that way they can address their team first, or at quarter time or half time. Not during the middle of their talk with their team.

Something for refs to consider.

[darkjedi]

Fair point, however if a Referee approaches a coach during a time out, then it's likely to be for a fairly important reason - warning the coach re: player behaviour or similar sorts of things that could end badly if not dealt with.

[Unregistered]

also a coach dosnt have to call a time out to talk to the ref as long as we are polite and and in an abusive or threating manner we have the right to talk to you as long as we are also not trying to questain every call!!!

saying can i please talk to you isnt threating or abusive and DOSNT warrent a tech foul

i got a tech for saying that in a game at distrcts on the weekend would any one here like to back me up on this intrepertion

if referees want us to assist them in keeping order then they need to interact both ways with us!!!!!!!

[Unregistered]

also a coach dosnt have to call a time out to talk to the ref as long as we are polite and and in an abusive or threating manner we have the right to talk to you as long as we are also not trying to questain every call!!!

saying can i please talk to you isnt threating or abusive and DOSNT warrent a tech foul

i got a tech for saying that in a game at distrcts on the weekend would any one here like to back me up on this intrepertion

if referees want us to assist them in keeping order then they need to interact both ways with us!!!!!!!

sorry should of read

as long as we are polite and not in an abusive or threating manner

[Unregistered]

we dont <b>have</b> to talk to you at all. But of course in the interest on not being arrogent pricks and the interest of improving the game if it is in a polite manner we normally will speak to you. If you were teched for asking to please talk that is an error, but say you have been going off all game then decide to take a friendly approach doesnt mean we have to talk to you know your being friendly.

I think that made sence

[Unregistered]

I completely agree, we dont have to talk to you, but for the good of the game we do.

As long as things are done at an appropriate time, and are not intrusive most refs will talk, the problem is that coaches believe they have the right, and when they dont get there 5 minute conversation whil the play is going they get upset. Things need to be short, sharp and to the point.

Also on the timeout thing, you dont call a timeout to talk to a ref, you call a timeout to talk to your players, you call a timeout to talk to me if i am on court, i will tell you that a timeout is for your players... You might get me for a quick question after... but not for a 1 minute lecture... not going to happen :)

Hope this helps?

[Unregistered]

we dont <b>have</b> to talk to you at all. But of course in the interest on not being arrogent pricks and the interest of improving the game if it is in a polite manner we normally will speak to you. If you were teched for asking to please talk that is an error, but say you have been going off all game then decide to take a friendly approach doesnt mean we have to talk to you know your being friendly.

I think that made sence

very ture but 6 mins into the game and it was the first time any direction of comment was too the ref


error no
power trip yes

[Unregistered]

I completely agree, we dont have to talk to you, but for the good of the game we do.

As long as things are done at an appropriate time, and are not intrusive most refs will talk, the problem is that coaches believe they have the right, and when they dont get there 5 minute conversation whil the play is going they get upset. Things need to be short, sharp and to the point.

Also on the timeout thing, you dont call a timeout to talk to a ref, you call a timeout to talk to your players, you call a timeout to talk to me if i am on court, i will tell you that a timeout is for your players... You might get me for a quick question after... but not for a 1 minute lecture... not going to happen :)

Hope this helps?

a time out can be used to to you if i choose to talk to you or my players it my choice an assstant can run time outs!!!!!

id love to read the rule book that states what i can and cant do in situations its got me puzzled

[Unregistered]

I hear the FIBA or some rule co-ordinator high up in the ranks has changed the rule on back-courts and also how to call tech fouls or something like that.
Care to elaborate?

[Unregistered]

Sorry guys: scratch that last post - there's another topic on FIBA's rule changes in the ref's forum.

[Unregistered]

a time out can be used to to you if i choose to talk to you or my players it my choice an assstant can run time outs!!!!!

id love to read the rule book that states what i can and cant do in situations its got me puzzled

It might not, but its a well known fact that a timeout is called because your team isnt doing something right, not the referees, we are not there to be lectured, or what not in a timeout, thats not what they are designed for. In fact timeouts are also used by referees, that time is spent seeing any changes in the game ect, its not there to have your way, yes, if there is a quick question on the way out of a timeout you can have a question (most referees will allow this) but you cant call a timeout just to talk to us... ask any senior ref and in most cases you will get a consistant answer.

[Unregistered]

also a coach dosnt have to call a time out to talk to the ref as long as we are polite and and in an abusive or threating manner we have the right to talk to you as long as we are also not trying to questain every call!!!

saying can i please talk to you isnt threating or abusive and DOSNT warrent a tech foul

i got a tech for saying that in a game at distrcts on the weekend would any one here like to back me up on this intrepertion

if referees want us to assist them in keeping order then they need to interact both ways with us!!!!!!!

Forget it Jake ....it's Spartantown

[Unregistered]

It might not, but its a well known fact that a timeout is called because your team isnt doing something right, not the referees, we are not there to be lectured, or what not in a timeout, thats not what they are designed for. In fact timeouts are also used by referees, that time is spent seeing any changes in the game ect, its not there to have your way, yes, if there is a quick question on the way out of a timeout you can have a question (most referees will allow this) but you cant call a timeout just to talk to us... ask any senior ref and in most cases you will get a consistant answer.

Interesting point, when I have been coaching a game A ref has instructed me to use my time out if I wanted to speak to them. I also know that all refs are different and agree that time outs should be used to address the team. So what options are there if, as a coach you want to address an issue with the ref during the game? I think CONSISTANCY is the key.

[Unregistered]

Interesting point, when I have been coaching a game A ref has instructed me to use my time out if I wanted to speak to them. I also know that all refs are different and agree that time outs should be used to address the team. So what options are there if, as a coach you want to address an issue with the ref during the game? I think CONSISTANCY is the key.

There are afew ways, alot of it reflects the tone and manor. I mean could grab us when we go over to bring the timeouts in, you can grab us in a stoppage, as long as we are close by, you could utilise your captain, as they are your on court communicator, we are aware of who they are ect, and will be happy to talk to them if they approach in the right manor.

THe thing you have to consider is common sense, you yell across the court, your not likely to get the answer you want, you be agressive same thing. Pick your times when we are near, and approach us how you want us to talk back.

[Unregistered]

Call a time out and if your question is about something that should have or should not have happened and you are correct you will not be charged the timeout but to simply bitch about a call or no call then you are on your own.

Coach Joyce had a question this afternoon when the ball struck the top of the back board. Would have thought an experienced coach like him would not need to ask.

[Unregistered]

Call a time out and if your question is about something that should have or should not have happened and you are correct you will not be charged the timeout but to simply bitch about a call or no call then you are on your own.

Coach Joyce had a question this afternoon when the ball struck the top of the back board. Would have thought an experienced coach like him would not need to ask.

This isnt the NFL, we dont have a challenge rule, if your wrong have a timeout, if your right, have it back... this is basketball. Timeouts are called to change something within the team, whether it be something the opposition is doing, or your doing? Dont worry about what we are doing, worry about what you are doing, we wont change, make adjustments...

[Unregistered]

This isnt the NFL, we dont have a challenge rule, if your wrong have a timeout, if your right, have it back... this is basketball. Timeouts are called to change something within the team, whether it be something the opposition is doing, or your doing? Dont worry about what we are doing, worry about what you are doing, we wont change, make adjustments...

if you read this tho we are not asking you to change im well aware that there is so many grey areas of interpretation in basketball we may just be asking your interpretation so we can tell our players to adjust. it should come down to whos got the right to talk to you and when they can but if the referees start to work with coaches and vice versa then it can only create a better game.

i am aware that we have a shortage of referees and often the pre game chat goes out the window so if we dont have that avenue to ask you your interpretation why cant it be reasonable to questain in a game.

a simple note the power you have is ... if a coaches questain every thing you can say" youve run out of questains any thing more could result in a tech." also as my eperance when i was a ref you could tell what coaches knew their rules and ones that dont you can shut them up very quickly..

[Unregistered]

word on the street is that hamish harris is moving to the states tomorrow to ref NCAA.

[Unregistered]

Hamish Harris is in Perth.

[Unregistered]

i was talking to him yesterday and he said he's leaving for the bright lights of america today